If you're anything like me then it's the carbs you eat that make you fat. Now I'm in my fifties I accept that I just can't do the amount of cardio I used to do in order to keep the extra weight off and I put most of my effort into weight training.

So my suggestion, if none of what's already been suggested works, is (until you've lost the weight you want to lose) to concentrate of training with weights, eat a reasonable amount of slow burning carbs before and fast burning carbs immediately after (within 15 minutes apparently) and drastically cut back the rest of the time. Only you can judge how much that should be to balance it against your output in the gym. You should be trying to get your body into fat burning mode by drastically cutting back while using the pre and post workout window, where you should be able to refuel your muscles and not your gut, to at least give yourself a chance at a half decent workout.

Your workouts will definitely not be as intense with the reduction in carbs but as long as you don't overdo it you should be ok.

The 500mg of test EW will prevent muscle loss and in my experience will actually add some even with the calorie deficit that will come from cutting back on the carbs.

I'm not suggesting you do this long term, but if done properly should result in some dramatic fat loss fairly quickly and you can then add carbs back slowly while increasing your workout intensity.

If you find yourself eating carbs just to fuel excessive cardio, then this is my short term alternative. Don't be afraid to eat good fats either. You'll need to get energy from somewhere.

Obviously, if I've read it wrong and you are bulking up or trying to break personal records in the gym or you just love cardio then ignore everything I've said and shoot some tren instead.

stillgoingstrong,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by slow & fast burning carbs? I'm thinking you're meaning either polysaccharides for "slow burning" and either mono or disaccharides for "fast burning"?

From my physiology classes as an undergraduate, I know you have Polysaccharides, which are carb molecules composed of long chains of monosaccharides (complex carbs), and mono, disaccharide, and oligosaccharides which are shorter chain carbs (simple carbs).

Since carbs in and of themselves aren't directly burned as energy, but converted to glucose, where they then enter the tricarboxylic acid cycle with the end outcome being ATP, ATP then is the fuel for most all functions, I'm wondering why eating short chain carbs within 15 minutes of a workout is better for weight loss, than eating complex carbs after a workout, where it costs more energy for the body to break down the complex carbs?

If you think about it, how would the body differentiate between 15 minutes, and 17 minutes after a workout? Would any carbohydrate intake that takes place after 15 minutes be for naught?

Additionally think about the time it needs to take for the body to digest the carbs in the stomach, transport the carbs through the bloodstream, further breakdown the carbs, and then go through the citric acid cycle to produce ATP.

I'm really writing this for the sake of dialogue, and perhaps I can learn something different.

When I was dieting for bodybuilding shows, I reduced my simple carb intake and stuck mostly with complex carbs, as it takes more energy for the body to produce energy from complex carbs.

I certainly don't profess to be an expert on the subject.

I do agree with your advice to reduce your overall carbohydrate intake if you are not able to do much cardio.

To add to what stillgoin said, after 30 I basically live in a situation where any type of carb outside raw fruits and veggies adds fat to me. I don't even do sweet potatoes, brown rice, quinoa, etc. Nothing. I find I get along just fine with a strict Paleo diet. The hard part is obviously the willpower though since those stupid neanderthals hadn't yet invented Guiness or hot wings.

Erich1b, to be honest, I was just trying to suggest an alternative to cardio for fat burning and a definite alternative to low calorie dieting. The OP isn't far behind me age wise and I can definitely appreciate how difficult it is to drive a lorry for 12 hours and then try to muster up the energy for a cardio workout along with weight training.

I will try to explain my take on pre and post workout carbs though. First off, sorry mate, I'm afraid polysaccharides and oligosaccharides (which I've never heard of before) is a bit high brow for me. To me, simple carbs just means glucose, bananas, or any other form of sugar or sugary drinks and for complex or slow burning carbs I mean oats, beans, starchy or fibrous vegetables etc. The important bit is the time it takes for the carbs you consume to turn into ATP. They all do, it just takes some longer than others.

I also believe that if used for post workout purposes, these carbs should not contain fat as this will slow down the digestion of the carbs. That rules out donuts, biscuits and chocolate etc.

Also, I totally get your point about the difference between 15 and 17 minutes. I suppose the reason for saying 15 minutes is because of the need to set a cut off point rather than suggest a general 'as soon as possible' time frame. If 17 minutes is not much different to 15, then 19 is not much different to 17 and so on.

From my understanding, the reason for consuming fast acting carbs rather than slow digesting carbs immediately post workout is because ideally these carbs should digest before protein is consumed. These digested carbs will create an insulin spike which will then help to push the amino acids from the protein into the muscles a lot quicker. Layman's terms I know, but hopefully it makes sense. An added benefit and the main reason I do this is because I know these carbs are going to be used for tissue repair and not to add to my fat stores.

My recovery will eventually happen without these carbs, but I truly feel it has an adverse effect on my next workout if I don't recover quickly.

Having said that, I doubt that consuming slow digesting carbs and protein immediately post workout will be too detrimental and for those who either compete or are on a mission to get as big as possible I'm sure that eating plenty of complex/slow burning carbs is definitely the way to go.

From personal experience I find that the less carbs I eat the more fat I burn. The problem is the intensity of my workouts definitely suffers. So, eating fewer carbs means I have a situation where I might lose fat but grow progressively weaker.

As we all know having or retaining lean mass keeps your metabolism high. Fat burning through a carb deficit as opposed to calorie burning helps retain some, if not most of my lean mass, but the declining intensity of my workouts doesn't really help in the long run. Therefore, eating as many carbs as I can get away with pre and post workout helps maintain as much intensity as possible, which helps retain or with some Test gain lean mass, while burning fat.

I must point out that I'm really advocating this style of dieting for fat loss for those of us who, for whatever reason, find it hard to do the necessary amount of cardio. Right up until my early forties I was a cardio freak - before injuries and wear and tear slowed me right up and the insidious fat gain started and at that point I would never have believed I'd need to find another way of keeping fat gain at bay. I would suggest that all of us will be in this position sooner or later, no matter how hard it is to appreciate when you're young.

Biggin, I know exactly what you mean as well. It doesn't happen that much, but I'm never much more a donut away from a carb binge!

Stillgoingstrong, thanks for the reply.

When I have more leisure time after work, I want to provide a more detailed reply to your post.

Having these sorts of discussions benefits all I feel, as I'm always learning and it's always good to hear where other people are coming from.

Regards.

FWIW, I'm still going strong myself at 51 years old. Been in the gym for 30 years.

Looking forward to it. I agree with you entirely about discussing things. We are all different, so it's always good to hear a person's own experience as well.

I know or at least I think I know what works for me, but that doesn't mean to say that if someone else suggests a different way of doing things that I won't give it a go. Who knows, it might just be the missing ingredient that makes everything work even better.

Like you, I suspect, I'll never stop training. I've had to readjust my ambitions, but if I die while bench pressing the bar only when I'm 100 I'll be reasonably OK with that.

btw I would never suggest that my way is the only way to do anything. I only ever suggest alternatives that work for me and that I believe might work for other people.

Stillgoingstrong,

I'll preface my reply with also adding that I in no way believe that my way is the only way either. Also, I think we're on the same page about complex and simple carbs.

You're second reply clarified your rational for eating simple carbs shortly after a workout. I didn't get where you were coming from with regards to eating simple carbs after a workout from your initial reply. That's why bodybuilders pop some slin after a workout, to elevate insulin levels to expedite the transport of amino acids into the cells. Here's what comes to mind for me, when I think about trying to create an insulin spike with simple carbs after a meal: 1): How much simple carbs do you need to eat to effectively create a significant rise in circulating insulin, enough that it would have the effect you are trying to create; 2): are some simple carbs more effective than others; 3): if you can create an insulin spike, how long does it last? The questions go on, as this would be a complex process involving multiple pathways in the body. I have to take ownership of overthinking things sometimes . Bottom line is can you really create this effect with eating simple carbs after a workout?

You mentioned having the carbs digest before protein is consumed. With that, I would go back to thinking if I could create an insulin spike with simple carbs post-workout, how long would there be such a spike. Because, when you then consume a protein source, your body certainly takes time to cleave apart the individual amino acids, which then need to be transported into the cells. That doesn't happen too quickly.

I have experimented with consuming an amino drink while I workout (so that post-workout, I already have an elevated level of aminos circulating in my blood (don't have to first wait to create an insulin spike post-workout, then eat a protein source, and hope that protein digestion and absorption happen quickly enough that they can be effected by the insulin spike I created), and then consuming a simple carb drink when I get home.

Eating fewer carbs to effect weight loss is something that (IMHO) requires a bit of research. If you eat too few carbs, your body will react by utilizing the gluconeogenic pathway to create glucose from amino acids taken from your muscles. Our goal is to increase muscle mass, so we don't want our muscles catabolized to create glucose.

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Injuries are a Mofo, but as you note for some people, are something that may affect how we go about our workouts. I've got chronic bilateral trochanteric bursitis, bilateral iliotibial band tendonitis, an old compression fracture of the T-12 vertebra, some narrowing of the spinal canal in the lumbar region. In laymans terms, I fucking hurt...... But, we keep going don't we. Desire comes from within, and with desire, comes a way to work around our injuries and keep grinding it out.

Erich

Hi Erich

I have a horrible feeling we're hijacking this thread and that wasn't my intention and I'm sure it not yours either, so apologies to the OP if we have.

Also, I think we're moving away from the point I was trying to make to the OP about losing his gut and that is that reducing his carb intake might be an effective alternative to cardio, especially when he's been sat in a cab for long hours etc etc.

I know, because I have manipulated my carb intake to lose fat for many years now, that it works for me. If it works for me it must work for other people. Not everybody, maybe, but at least some. If the OP is like me and there's a fair chance he maybe then it might work for him too.

I'm not suggesting anyone does the Atkins diet or other high protein/low carbs diets as such, but getting your body into fat burning mode does definitely burn fat. The problem is it also fucks up your workouts.

So, if the OP decided to give the low carb way to lose fat a go, I was trying to suggest ways of significantly reducing his carb intake in order to lose the fat, while still trying to eat enough carbs to keep up the intensity of his workouts and keep in fat burning mode. For me, I found the best way to do that is eat most of your daily carb intake both pre and post workout. When I've lost enough of my winter plumage, as I call it, I'll add back some more oats earlier in the day and berries and other fruits etc in some Greek yoghurt during the day.

With regard to the time it takes to cleave apart the individual amino acids, I would suggest that this is the reason we consume whey isolate (a very fast acting protein), thereby reducing as much as possible the time it takes the body to extract them.

Follow this up with a wholefood source which breaks down slowly and we have a constant trickle of amino acids for the next few hours or until we next eat.

I agree with your questioning the amount of carbs you need to create an effective insulin spike. I would suggest that every time we workout our carbohydrate needs will be slightly different. I might be talking out of my arse but it must surely depend on the intensity of your workout ie how much glycogen you will have burned up working out and therefore how much needs to be replaced.

We can only deal with so much glucose at any given time, the excess gets converted into fat. When we drain our muscles of glycogen (which is basically stored glucose) by working out then they need to be refilled. This now empty storage tank (for want of a better word) allows us to eat more carbs by before any excess gets converted into fat. I repeat, it's only the excess that gets turned into fat. This also explains why the more muscle we carry the more carbs we can eat before getting fat.

The muscles are one storage tank for glucose, but we also have others, our liver being another. When following a low carb diet these tanks are either emptied completely (probably not completely, but you know what I mean), emptied slightly or anywhere in between depending on how low our carb intake is and how much exercise etc we perform. If we start our workout with empty tanks we are able to eat a lot more carbs before any excess than if we had full up tanks. Which helps if we want to lose fat!

The problem with empty tanks in our muscles, I suppose, is that when we workout we'll have no energy to work out with. That's why I eat some complex carbs pre workout. I'm sure that consuming simple or fast acting carbs will fill our muscles with glycogen just as effectively as the slower carbs, but for me, the complex carbs I eat serve other health giving purposes as well and pre workout is a good time to eat, for example, oats without risking fat gain.

Creating an insulin spike to drive amino acids into your muscles post workout is desirable but having excessive insulin all the time is why we get fat. It's all about balance.

Your point about the muscles cannibalizing is a good one and that is why, in my experience, restricting calories as well as restricting carbs doesn't work. If we eat the same or maybe slightly less calories but reduce carbs and increase our protein intake that cannibalization shouldn't happen or if it does should be minimal. Anorexic people who eat next to nothing die as a result of their bodies consuming its own store of amino acids. These amino acids or essential fatty acids to give it a better word come from muscles. Muscles include the heart, the kidneys, the liver etc and your own body eating it's own liver or kidney is not good.

Remember also, that this is aimed at anyone who primarily wants to lose fat, not those whose main aim is to gain muscle.

A lot of this is in layman's terms. But I hope it explains my take on the process by which too many carbs can make us fat.

I hope all this - your input as well as mine - is useful to the OP if he does decide to cut back on his carbs. If not, really sorry for hijacking your thread, OP.